Pay to Win - What goes?

IMO, P2W are things like:

1. Being able to buy raid quality gear from a cash shop, skipping the traditional path of obtaining the gear in the first place.

2. Only allowing players who buy cash shop items to have access to specific gear slots like capes or jewelry.

3. Having cash shop items that allow a single player to train all crafts when free players can only train 1 or 2 professions. Depending on how valuable crafting is and how much time is needed, this often means that mega-crafter has huge advantages over other players who have to swap between multiple characters, leveling them each up individually, etc.

4. Mounts and other items that have stats that are higher than what non-paying players have access to (e.g. cash shop mount is +300% speed; in-game mounts cap at 250%).

5. Instant-leveling or leveling a few times faster than non-cash shop purchasers.

Things like +200% gold are only game-breaking if what you can do with gold means everything. In games like GW2, being uber wealthy with gold doesn't necessarily get you anything a broke player can't have as the best gear/mats are often account bound anyway.

Moroi wrote:

to start off, I'll give some thoughts of my own. do note that these are just
my opinions and not something you should take as absolute. the following
also concerns mainly an endgame-centric MMORPG environment.

• in any MMORPG where enhancing equipment is a feature, having your equipment
  in top condition becomes more or less a requirement for endgame. anything you
  can buy with actual money makes it easier/faster/cheaper to upgrade your gear
  is P2W in my opinion. as a hypothetical example, imagine you can enhance your
  equipment on a scale of +0 to +10, and each stage requires more material to
  succeed. however, as you get closer to +10, the chances of success decrease
  dramatically, while the cost of materials increases all the while. a simple item to
  increase the chances of success, even a little, would still count as P2W, as
  you're achieving the same thing non-paying players are, just far faster and easier.
• anything you can get off a cash shop that directly makes you ingame gold, be it
  via a boost, or just selling the item for gold, is P2W also. this is because spending
  actual money would grant you with a virtually infinite supply of ingame currency.
  you can very easily liken this to buying gold off a gold seller. this could be dangerous
  due to the warp in the game's economy such practices may create, either by generating
  more gold than intended, or just by making the paying players exceedingly wealthy
  in comparison to their non-paying counterparts, which comes with a set of problems of
  its own.
• as for something a bit more controversial, many people see experience and level
  boosts as P2W, but I can't fully agree. WoW is a notorious example for this, as they
  give a max level boost with the pre-purchase of every new expansion (and offer it separately in their store).
  I don't see this as P2W because the game centers very much around the endgame,
  this boost just puts you in the very beginning with that, the gear this provides you
  with is only good enough for the entry-level max level content. something to consider
  is also that long time players have likely leveled dozens of characters over the years,
  so the boost is just a way to skip the content they've already seen so many times.

please note that this thread is intended to be a very general exchange of thoughts regarding the subject.

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XP Boosts: The ability to purchase XP Boosts in WoW works because currently Raiding has been so insanely dumbed down add to that the amount of time invested (even with heirloom gear that is now handed out for just showing up) to obtain Level Cap in WoW.
Vanilla - Cata I would say - especially Vanilla - WOLK most players main-ed 1 (one) main and 1(one) alt ( farm nights) simply because mastering a class especially with a static group was a very large time investment. To be able to play a specific class well whether in Arena, Pre-Mades and more importantly Raids took a considerable amount of time & organization. Today WoW raids are very easy - even mythic - many players can easily play several classes and still progress well.

However - A boost early in this game could potentially destroy honest Progression & create an uneven playing field.

PTW: From my perspective (and the perspective of seasoned & very talented gamers that I have known over the years who are waiting patiently to see if they will indeed invest in Bless due to the PTW business model )... ANY item that gives a player any benefit that aids in his or her progression or gives them an advantage over another group and/or player (even if that item is based on RNG) via real currency is PTW.

I think Google agrees & we know how important "He?" is ....

The problem of P2W also brings up the issue of whales. There are those people obviously who will pay to get ahead in a game just to be the best in it. Avoiding the whole P2W concept should eliminate the problems that come with whales and the potential of overspending on what essentially amounts to nothing.

I'll give 3 examples and why they're either P2W or simply a service.
Neverwinter - you periodically get chests that can only be unlocked with keys that you can only get by purchasing them at the cash shop. These chests are essentially loot crates, from which you get items to level up your gear gems/runes (these are necessary), superior mounts and followers. You can also pretty much purchase top level gear so this is obviously P2W.

ESO - You can pay for a monthly service that stores all your mats so they don't take up space, organizes them better, gives you access to all expansions instead of outright buying them, and gives you a 10% exp boost. This is a service.

GW2 - You can purchase larger bank space, cosmetics, additional crafting licenses, larger bag slots, and keys for their loot chests. This is mostly pay for services since nothing that can be bought or can be found in the loot chests is actually necessary.

If I had to choose which system I would like to see Bless use as an example it would be GW2.

BaconMage wrote:

I'll give 3 examples and why they're either P2W or simply a service.
Neverwinter - you periodically get chests that can only be unlocked with keys that you can only get by purchasing them at the cash shop. These chests are essentially loot crates, from which you get items to level up your gear gems/runes (these are necessary), superior mounts and followers. You can also pretty much purchase top level gear so this is obviously P2W.

ESO - You can pay for a monthly service that stores all your mats so they don't take up space, organizes them better, gives you access to all expansions instead of outright buying them, and gives you a 10% exp boost. This is a service.

GW2 - You can purchase larger bank space, cosmetics, additional crafting licenses, larger bag slots, and keys for their loot chests. This is mostly pay for services since nothing that can be bought or can be found in the loot chests is actually necessary.

If I had to choose which system I would like to see Bless use as an example it would be GW2.

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Loot crates are causing big problems legally speaking in multiple countries. It's considered a type of gambling and is likely to be eliminated entirely in the future. Just look at how well Star Wars battlefront's loot crates were received...

Moroi wrote:

and not without reason, honestly. they utilize the same methodology as slot machines, and are specifically designed to be addicting; rewarding you only just enough to stay hopeful that your next win will be the "big one", and to keep your brain high on dopamine just enough to keep you feeling good but not going overboard, so it won't lose its effect. it's honestly disgusting how widespread the lootbox system is nowadays, how innocuous it's presented as.
while a bit off topic from the subject of P2W, this is an important issue as well and warrants discussion and spreading awareness

Biologically speaking games function off the whole release of endorphins, dopamine, and adrenaline in general. Mental stimulation is part of what makes gaming so successful as a mode of entertainment. Loot boxes play into it. I only know of one game that gets away with a positive wrap on selling loot crates and that's ESO. The only reason Zenimax gets away with it is because the premium currency comes as part of the subscription so technically you can get them for free. Still I'd prefer Bless/Neowiz stay away from them entirely because they do more harm then good.

Pentrep wrote:

Loot crates are causing big problems legally speaking in multiple countries. It's considered a type of gambling and is likely to be eliminated entirely in the future. Just look at how well Star Wars battlefront's loot crates were received...

Yeah however that won't happen in the US...at least not now. Gambling is becoming more and more accepted here. Though if a game is coming from Korea for example and it becomes illegal or more strict, it will most likely carry over to our version...maybe

Ezenkrul87 wrote:

Yeah however that won't happen in the US...at least not now. Gambling is becoming more and more accepted here. Though if a game is coming from Korea for example and it becomes illegal or more strict, it will most likely carry over to our version...maybe

Not yet, No. I know a few states suggested it when the Battlefront issue was recognized.
https://www.polygon.com/2017/1…ed-regulation-investigate
https://www.rollingstone.com/g…ght-of-loot-boxes-w516718
There is a bigger movement in Canada, where I live, but it's a long time from becoming reality.

Moroi wrote:

indeed, if things continue the way they are now, it'll be fairly long until lootboxes get the axe, collectively. to really affect any single game with the system, they'd have to be pretty widely banned across the market area for that particular game. a single state or a single small European country instituting a ban would likely just cause more inconvenience to the inhabitants than actually have any success at curbing the lootbox system

Agreed. The bottom line is that Neowiz probably would be better off completely avoiding loot boxes. Eventually they will be illegalized. In addition, I doubt there are many who actually want loot boxes.

P2W is simple... If you can pay real $$$ to give you a in-game benefit over others.
Dozens of examples... In Bless Pets/Mounts and Reroll scrolls/Tokens.
All of these fall under P2W. Pets give combat bonuses/abilities, and you cannot achieve the highest tier of buffs without the
Pure Evil of the RNG Reroll Scroll. 113....113! That is how many scrolls it took me to get a pet "rerolled" to what I wanted.
No it wasn't in one go... Yes I want the Scrolls changed, or the Pet Buffs themselves.. Something for the Steam version.
Neowhiz says no P2W in the Steam ver. Then they need to do something about Pets/mounts and the Scroll/Tokens.

Pentrep wrote:

Agreed. The bottom line is that Neowiz probably would be better off completely avoiding loot boxes. Eventually they will be illegalized. In addition, I doubt there are many who actually want loot boxes.

I wouldn't mind loot boxes so much if they'd just be honest about it. For example .... you have a .0000000001% chance of getting what you want, a .0000003% chance of getting something good, a 1% chance of getting something okay and a 98.9% chance of getting dreck.

Then I'd be able to say to myself: "Self, do you want to spend money on dreck?" To which my self would probably reply "Is it shiny?" In which case I'd get someone to take my money away from me before I spend it all.

If the boxes were more fair ... like 1% great item, 9% good item, 90% okay item I might still buy one for that 10% chance to get something I want. (Not really, because I have no money and terrible luck, but I'd consider it.)

Back to your point, though, Pen ... yeah, I think they'll eventually remember there's a reason they don't let minor children into casinos. It's not legal. And loot boxes are just gambling with pretend prizes.

tamberleigh wrote:

I wouldn't mind loot boxes so much if they'd just be honest about it. For example .... you have a .0000000001% chance of getting what you want, a .0000003% chance of getting something good, a 1% chance of getting something okay and a 98.9% chance of getting dreck.
Then I'd be able to say to myself: "Self, do you want to spend money on dreck?" To which my self would probably reply "Is it shiny?" In which case I'd get someone to take my money away from me before I spend it all.

If the boxes were more fair ... like 1% great item, 9% good item, 90% okay item I might still buy one for that 10% chance to get something I want. (Not really, because I have no money and terrible luck, but I'd consider it.)

Back to your point, though, Pen ... yeah, I think they'll eventually remember there's a reason they don't let minor children into casinos. It's not legal. And loot boxes are just gambling with pretend prizes.

Part of what makes loot boxes bad is the whole juvenile access to it. What's stopping a kid from asking their parents to buy them in game currency then turning around and buying a loot box? Most of the time the parents don't know what the kid is buying and that is partially the parents fault. But the fact that kids have access to it at all is a problem. It's sort of the same mindset of microtransactions. There's plenty of cases of kids overspending because in theory the price point is low, but overtime it builds up. But it doesn't change that it's still in game gambling.

Exactly!

All those horror stories of kids spending hundreds of dollars on things like candy crush -- or other mobile games -- and those are just for power ups or more turns. How much more do they spend on dress up avatar games?

Loot boxes should either be honest about their chances or removed completely. (Ideally I'd like to see them list their chances and be more fair about giving you items. What can I say, I like the idea of 'winning' something from a box.)

If they do do loot boxes I'd like to see them restrain themselves to costumes, skins, dyes or what have you ... things that are purely cosmetic and not actually useful. So, it's Pay to be Pretty, or something.

Moroi wrote:

I'm not so sure if having the potential contents with their appearance changes clearly displayed would really help. it's still probabilities, meaning you could buy a hundred boxes, and not get the 1% item. randomness is either nice or very very bad.
games like fire emblem heroes have their rates well on display, heck, the chances even go up if you don't get anything good for a while. another problem with FE:H is that their "loot tables" are tiered, meaning there could be 5 different 5-star heroes available for summon, but you want only one, meaning the chances of getting that specific hero are significantly lower than displayed (which should be obvious to anyone familiar with probabilities, but sadly this is often not the case).

I heartily agree that if lootboxes must be, they should be purely cosmetic.

The probability of getting a reward doesn't really change the tangibility of purchasing it. Most loot boxes come in a low price format, in order to entice buyers, especially when your talking about mobile games. The risk doesn't seem high because the price point is low. You always get "something" and whether that something is worth the price or not is up to the consumer.

Moroi wrote:

I'm not sure if I fully agree. I think many buy/open loot boxes with hopes of getting a specific item. even if you do get "something", if it's not the thing you seek, the box is more or less a disappointment.
when the chances of getting the item you want are displayed, it makes the feeling of being able to get it all the more real, even if the probability is very low. this in turn could lead to getting far too many boxes than feasible, with a "maybe it'll be in the next one" kind of mentality. especially if individually they seem inexpensive

All of which serves the purpose of getting the developers money (which we all knew in the first place, but I'm taking credit for saying it here). I don't mind, myself, paying money for cosmetics for my character or a mount ... and I'm foolish enough that I might buy a loot box or two if and only if I knew how good/bad my chances were.

Either way, so long as the gambling boxes were kept to pure cosmetic stuffs rather than rare crafting mats, I think it's fine. Well, so long as there was more than a minuscule chance of getting what you want. A fair -- or more fair -- loot box isn't so much to ask for, since I think it's too much to ask for them to go away.

The game will probably have them since every other game does.

Moroi wrote:

I'm not sure if I fully agree. I think many buy/open loot boxes with hopes of getting a specific item. even if you do get "something", if it's not the thing you seek, the box is more or less a disappointment.
when the chances of getting the item you want are displayed, it makes the feeling of being able to get it all the more real, even if the probability is very low. this in turn could lead to getting far too many boxes than feasible, with a "maybe it'll be in the next one" kind of mentality. especially if individually they seem inexpensive

There has to be more than one good item, though. Say if a loot box has 15 possible items you can obtain. Maybe 5 of them are good, with 1 of them being the desired piece. The dev has to make the loss feel lessened when they don't get 1 of those 5 items. It might not be as worth it, but you still got something. It's like the lottery, there are many people who don't win the jackpot but win lesser prizes. It uses the same mentality of gambling.

tamberleigh wrote:

All of which serves the purpose of getting the developers money (which we all knew in the first place, but I'm taking credit for saying it here). I don't mind, myself, paying money for cosmetics for my character or a mount ... and I'm foolish enough that I might buy a loot box or two if and only if I knew how good/bad my chances were.
Either way, so long as the gambling boxes were kept to pure cosmetic stuffs rather than rare crafting mats, I think it's fine. Well, so long as there was more than a minuscule chance of getting what you want. A fair -- or more fair -- loot box isn't so much to ask for, since I think it's too much to ask for them to go away.

The game will probably have them since every other game does

The bottom line is, should Neowiz decide to do loot-boxes then they need to do so responsibly. Chances are they will be taken out of the store in the future regardless. Businesswise it would be better if they didn't in the long term but ultimately it's up to them. I mean the mechanics for loot boxes are already in the game, at least they were for the KR version.