Content Competitive PVE

Sorry about the late reply here, I promised a response in 12-24 hours but I have been busy with projects and stressing over the fact theres only two months until finals. Making any type of cohesive sentence out of what I have been thinking has been difficult, and my other posts have reflected this. (This is post 1/2, character limit snagged me)

From what I have seen there seem to be two issues people are having with this idea

1. Player Gear in challenge mode
   
2. Rewards received from challenge mode
   

At its core Bless is an MMO with a heavy focus on both player progression and on PvP content. Due to this people either think it is "wrong" to allow people to lose their gear upon entering challenge mode, or that it is "wrong" to allow people who don't have the proper gear to experience late game content. This same reasoning is used to argue what the rewards would be if this mode even became a reality. Those who think it is "wrong" that people would lose their gear think that players should be rewarded for their time, perseverance, and skill. Those who think it is "wrong" that people would be given gear think there should be minimal rewards as this potentially undermines player progression and the rest of the late game content.

As these two viewpoints are so conflicting it will be almost impossible to get everybody on the same page but here I have tried my hardest. I took everybody's feedback, the OP's original idea, and with some liberally applied game theory came up with these ideas (yes there are two)

Idea 1

My first idea is to take the original "challenge mode" and feedback from this thread to make a competitive PvE experience. This would be done by dividing this mode into two separate gameplay systems, "challenge mode" and "practice mode"

Both challenge mode and practice mode would be seasonal; however, practice mode would have more content consistently available than challenge mode. I will start by describing practice (henceforth called "traning") mode as it lays the foundation for the true challenge.

Practice mode would be available to groups of 5 upon reaching maximum level and would use scalar leveling to keep the challenge appropriate for all. Practice mode would be accessed either through dungeon gates at Spetia and Hieriacon or through a submenu. Once inside the training "hub" parties can enter a scaled version of any dungeon they wish. Scaling would have the following properties:

• All mobs would have their level scaled to 45 (or 50)
  
• All mobs would be given appropriate baseline stats to match their level
  
• These baseline stats would then be modified in accordance to the mean (to account for outliers) gearscore (GS) of the party.
  

To make sure people can't be carried through training mode (would undermine the point of practice) the scaling would not be linear, but would instead look something like this S=M(GS)+((MaxGS-MinGS)/1/SxGS) this simple equation simply means the scalar value the mobs inherit would be determined by the mean GS of all party members plus the difference of the highest GS in the party and the lowest GS of the party divided by the reciprocal of the standard deviation of the party's GS. S would then be used as a reference point to further modify the stats of the mobs -A lower S value means easier fights, a higher S value means harder fights. (This is a mathematically simple way to punish people for trying to be carried through training, as the mobs will scale harder if the GS of somebody in the party is a statistical outlier.)

A successful run of practice mode will provide the party with once per season rewards depending on their completion score (CS). The higher the score, the better the rewards. Scores in the top 5% receive the "A" reward, scores between the top 25 and 5% receive the "B" reward while all remaining scorers receive the "C" reward. These rewards are minor and only redeemable once per practice map per season. As they will make almost no difference, they allow the training mode to retain its true identity: to allow people to hone their mechanical skill, have fun with friends in a low-stress environment, and earn access to challenge mode.

While practice mode is designed to allow players to learn mechanics, have fun with friends, earn access to challenge mode and supplement their income, the fact it is scaled based on their GS means it is an equitable experience for all. Challenge mode cares less about this equity and instead wishes to reward players for their skill. (Post 2/2)

Upon entering challenge mode the player will be given one of two options:

1. Keep their current gear + spec
   
2. Receive a random class based kit and complimentary specialization.
   

In challenge mode all mobs will be level scaled and be given stats higher than mobs in standard 5 man late game dungeons. While I don't know what these numbers would be, if we would like to mirror "hard" "heroic" "mythic" or "legendary" content a multiplier between 1.3 and 2.5 would be appropriate (as that is what many other titles use)

This would mean many mobs would

• Do more damage than usual
  
• Take less damage than usual
  
• Move faster than usual
  

Bosses would additionally

• Attack faster
  
• Use semi-randomized rotations
  
• Enjoy faster cast times
  

At the end of every season (two week period) the system would calculate leaderboard positions by each players ratio between successful and failed challenge runs. In order to do this, however, we must first define a successful run and a failed run.

A successful run is one in which players cleared the dungeon within a set time limit (set by the developers) and without suffering more than 5 player deaths (the equivalent of more than one party wipe) .

A failed run is one in wish the party fails to complete the challenge within the time limit, has more than 5 cumulative deaths or has a full party wipe. In case of a failure the party is allowed to either continue (for practice) or to restart the dungeon.

After every successful run the players receive a notice that they were successful and that they can not try again until tomorrow (either a 22 hour reset window, or a hard reset at midnight server time) This means a perfect record would be 14-0.

Rewards would then be distributed based on this ratio based leaderboard.

Sorry that this post was rushed compared to the first one, I didn't know what the character limit was and I don't want my two posts to be separated. I will come in and edit this one with better info when I have time.

I think you missed the original post goal

"1. Player gear in challenge mode"
Everyone got the same "Gear Score", that's the goal; but we just need to have a system where everyone can choose the "optimization" (full crit, full power or something like this). That's all.

"2. Rewards received from the challenge mode"
Only with the top 3 timer per season (Mount, skin, etc... permanent). And for the loot in dungeons, i said less item just to avoid the farming without win nothing. If we loot 0 gold and 0 everything, that's not a big deal, this mode is JUST for the timer without limit of entry and gear.

And it must be so easy to put in the game that the developers (if they see it) just say "Well, it can be done in 1 week, why not"


Or at least, this is my point. It's not a "BIG MODE OF THE HELL BIG IDEA", it's just a mini mode where some players can enjoy and be competitive with. I know i'm not really good in english, but it's seem like i really have a hard time to be clear or understand.

Bless is a "more PVP" MMO, that's the problem with the "PVE idea".
The big PVE is not so good for developpers (look Wildstar). There is just a few ppl that want it.

And what game are "famous" ?
World Of Warcraft, after that,
League of Legend ("Connect and play" with "quick run" without the "farm gear") and now
PUBG (same idea as League of Legend) and
Fortnite (same)

I don't say they are the best game, i just say that the games with succes have in common a "Connect and play for quick run without farm gear" with fun and goal to reach.

Majority of "gamers" don't have the patience now... and developpers don't want to create big things for nothing.
That's why the idea was "just a little effort"

While I might have missed the goal, I don't think I really did. Your original goal was to provide individuals with a game mode in which only skill matters and where they can be rewarded for it. Many modern MMOs do this: BnS has Mushin's Tower, Revelation Online has The Oracle, and other games have similar systems. The key differences between your original idea and these two ideas (brought up because they do it correctly from a design standpoint) is that these ideas cater to the entire community, do not interfere with their overall design philosophy, and have rewards that are proportionate to what is being done.

Mushin's Tower is a late game solo dungeon in which players are rewarded more so for mastering mechanics than their gear. Many fights (Junghado, Mushin [45 patch], IronHeart, Naksun [50 patch], the Kismet Fighters, and Yungsang [55 patch] are difficult to surpass even with top of the line gear. This is because they are mechanically intensive terrors and the best way to beat them is through memorizing their rotations and hitboxes, sometimes even re-speccing between fights to be better prepared for the unique challenge provided. Despite the fact gear isn't the most important thing, many fights are impossible unless your AP (BnS equivalent of GS) is close to a certain point. This is because BnS is designed to be a game focused on player progression, just like MMOs such Bless.

Your idea is closer to that of Revelation Online's Oracle, and FFXIV's level scaled content. These areas scale mobs to the relative power of all party members. In RO this content provides rewards that scale based on party level and gear score, and provides awful rewards, while I have never played FFXIV I know the rewards for its level scaled content isn't anything special. While having a unique approach to a tried and true system isn't inherently bad, taking endgame content and scaling it to be available to everybody isn't content competitive PvE it is simply scaled PvE content.

From a developer's perspective simply taking Revelation Online's system and adding a leader board with top 3 rewards just isn't worth it, even if it only takes very few resources to develop. This is partly due to the nature of coding itself and the streamlined nature of modern gaming. A system which asks people to sink time into and only rewards the top three groups could be seen as extraneous, unrewarding fluff by the majority of the players and be ignored. Effectively leading to content that is disproportionately rewarding to the players that do focus on it. That is why games that do have level scaled content do so in an attempt to allow players to revisit old content and still be challenged, to simply fulfill a daily quest that everybody can do (with equal reward) or in an attempt to force players to rely on their skill and hard earned gear to overcome difficult challenges.

As for your specific counter claim points I will go over them


Three out of the four games you mentioned aren't even MMOs. This doesn't invalidate your argument, it simply weakens it. MMOs are typically Role Playing Games, RPGs reward players for time, commitment, and skill. League of Legends is a MOBA, there is no overarching sense of player progression in MOBAs it is simply analyzed on a game to game basis.

Fortnite and PUBG are both survival based shooters that are exceptionally similar to one another. Again, there is no overarching sense of player progression in either one of these games as they are both analyzed on a game to game basis.


In Bless, it isn't a matter of simply maxing one of your characters stats. Many pieces of legendary gear give you direct and exclusive buffs to your abilities. An assassin can have full crit and still be useless without proper gear because of how important these passives are for certain builds to be successful. If you prevent certain specializations from ever being successful you alienate a portion of the player base, something that competitive content should never do (as a result of a design choice).


Rewards are exactly what they are, rewards. I'm no fan of participation trophies but historically speaking when it comes to video games players are rewarded for their time and effort even if they don't come in first place. The rewards would need to be tiered and not simply "you get something or you don't" Due to this a way for scores to be calculated and compared would need to be developed tested and stuck to.

Even the most minuscule of ideas spend weeks in internal testing for any game with competitive integrity. An entire new part of the game that is supposed to be competitive, uncheatable and equitable would always need to be in internal testing for more than one week. Most developers believe that if something should be done it should be done correctly the first time, as making revisions to systems take more time, effort and money to fix (more time between changes == more money involved due to compounding variables)

Your idea is not bad, if I didn't think your idea was good I wouldn't have spent so much time thinking about it myself. I just know how game developers tend to think, (again, I'm going to school to be one) and in its current form this idea wouldn't be attractive to many developers due to the fact it could simply be seen as fluff.