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Content Competitive PVE

    • Content Competitive PVE

      New

      Would you like add Competitive content PVE? 19
      1.  
        Yes (16) 84%
      2.  
        No (3) 16%
      Hello, we are some experimented player in MMORPG (WoW, Tera, Black Desert, Revelation Online, Blade and Soul etc.) and we have an idea to share.

      The idea is to add a mode for dungeons (like the « Hard Mode » or « Heroïc Mode »)


      The Challenger Mode.


      Unlockable when the lvl max is reached.

      - You'll not have your gear, you'll have the same gear than the others.

      - Buffs/potions/consumables will not be available (just class buffs allowed).

      - A timer will pop on your UI.
      - No gear drop, and -50 % all others loots (gold, craft etc...).

      - No enter restriction

      - No death penalty


      The goal is to add a competitive side based on talent, coordination, and players knowledge, The three best scores (in a « season » lasting 1 month) will be visible on a simple interface.

      At the end of the month, the 15 players (3 teams of 5 players) will be rewarded with cosmetics items

      Rewards Only available with this system (Mount, Skin, etc.)


      The pros :

      - Rewards skills players (not on time played, farm, chance, gear ,etc…)

      - Encourages players to improve themselves.

      - Accessible to everyone.

      - Create an indirect competition between players on PVE…

      -… and so, will never stop.

      - The objects will be seen as a proof of skill.

      - Lots of time isn’t required.

      - Farming is not required.

      - Gear is not required.

      - Unique content giving more importance to the PVE (at lower cost)

      - Only need a little work to put it in the game


      As a PVE player, we never saw a system like this. This mode puts forward the skill above all else, and allows, through the rewards, to have a certain notoriety and a good idea of the level players without the « time played », « luck », or « money spent ». And this is not reserved either for elite players, it can improve players of all levels, beginner or veteran.


      The idea of an indirect competition in PVE gives another interesting side created by the players themselves in small group and without the known requirement of classic PVE which are, for some, a « bad » point. Rewards must be extremely interesting to motivate as many people as possible to improve themselves for getting it.


      The « seasons » lasting 1 month, leaving time for the casual gamer (who don’t have a lot of time to play) to try it without get pressure for their lack of played time.


      The important point, is to reward pure skill with « prestige » items, and include an extra PVE goal.

      *This idea can be further improved*

    • New

      I have nothing against this idea, for hardcore players this could be entertaining, but if what you're searching is difficulty I heard the endgame is already pretty hard, because of the team strategy and numbers needed.

      If you still think this is necessary then ok.

      But maybe adding that challenging rewards for the end game content already existing, like maybe win a key that can unlock a random chest system you can freely purchase on the cash shop or something along those lines?? :huh:
      Trusted compeer let us meet once fate decides upon it,


      Sealed by       Blueberry

    • New

      While modes are good in theory, it could lead to laziness in part of the developers. Look at what FFXIV does now. Literally 3 versions of the same content with very little to differ between them besides some nuanced mechanics and "better" drops. I think more difficult versions of the dungeons are fine, but too much of the same thing can be a double edged sword. I'd prefer max 2 levels of difficulty of the same dungeon, then move on to something new.

    • New

      This is not just an other mode, this mode put a competition of skill between players and no loot too. It's just for the timer score.
      And, well, it's easy for the developers, yes, but the game is more PVP, and add an other side for PVE, it's win-win.

      In every "pre-launch game" there is a "give us idea we listen !" part, and there is always a lot of idea without thining like a developers.
      "If we add this, we must to this, this, this, this, this, this" ... it's too much, and i never saw a "new (and great) mechanics" added.

    • New

      I promote this idea. It's not a Game-Changer nor
      is it a hindrance on the current systems. Yet it does
      promote a form of the Game (PvE) that is not a
      Main Focus of the Game so to speak.
      We can all do better & work faster together!

    • New

      I vote yes.

      However, I think we should keep our equipment, or at least a tuned down (adjusted to other players) version of it, because it can make or break certain builds.
      Other than that, it seems pretty cool and well thought.

    • New

      QcDiablo wrote:

      I vote yes.

      However, I think we should keep our equipment, or at least a tuned down (adjusted to other players) version of it, because it can make or break certain builds.
      Other than that, it seems pretty cool and well thought.
      Level sync is a pretty amazing concept. FFXIV does a good job with it where you can do daily dungeons level synced and gear level appropriate gear for it. I could see this as being done in Bless, especially since there currently aren't many dungeons to speak of.

    • New

      While this is a harmless and potentially fun idea, it would (like anything else) need to be polished before an official release.

      As others have said, the endgame content is already difficult if not impossible to complete without a well coordinated group, if you are just looking for "harder mechanical content" there are other ways it could be introduced.

      If you are simply looking for "a skill test" there are also better ways to implement it into the game (although with more time, work, and effort involved). In recent years several games have been implementing "solo" and "group trial" dungeons - think Mushin's Tower from BnS and similar content - in which players are rewarded mostly through mastering mechanics, game knowledge, timing, and other elements of both macro and micro play.

      Another small issue with this idea is that you suggested normalizing gear, while that is normally a good thing for skill based trials, many builds for certain classes require certain gear combinations to even function. By normalizing gear you effectively prevent the players that play these specs from having optimal damage output, rotations, and survivability.

      Another issue is that eventually groups will get so used to the content, perfect their rotations, their movements etc, that there will be a stranglehold on the highest ranks.

      With these points in mind I have come up with some ways to build upon the primary idea here "The Challenger Mode"

      Challenger Mode would be available upon hitting maximum level and would have the following qualities:
      1. Gear would be equalized in one of two ways
        • Either log the gear you are wearing as you enter the dungeon and apply the equipment based buffs to undisspellable character buffs. (This allows for equalized stats while still letting gear based builds perform)
        • Or through a "kit" system. Making several class specific kits would allow for individuals to not only use a build they are familiar with, but also allow for individuals to try new specs with late game gear.
      2. There would be no drops while in the dungeon, instead players would be rewarded with the 'end of season' rewards you mentioned before. Additionally, after every run (failed or successful) the party would receive a "treasure pouch" with rewards that scale with bosses defeated and time taken. (More bosses in less time = better rewards)
      3. Instead of simply letting us choose one dungeon to practice over and over again, each 'season' could bring a new trial.
        • One option for a trial would be a single dungeon with level scaled mobs (Revelation Online and FFXIV have similar content)
        • Another option would be to have a mixture of "cells" from various dungeons with each cell ending with a boss fight. While I am not expert when it comes to coding I have done something similar (albeit on a much smaller scale) without much issue. This would make the "challenge" more prominent (what I am getting into this time). This however may strip your idea's original identity.
      4. Have no hard death penalty, rather, each time you die you must wait to respawn. The first death would have no respawn timer while consecutive deaths would add time to the respawn up to a hard cap (of say thirty seconds). This may not even be needed though.
      5. Entry would be free with no restrictions; however, depending on implementation there may need to be one. Especially if treasure pouches provide imbalanced rewards for groups that are consistently successful.


      These ideas are all just random ones that came to me during an English lecture, decided to post them for others to see until I can refine them a little bit more tonight. In the nature of the OP feel free to contribute.

    • New

      this seems somewhat similar to the mythic+ system in WoW. I really adore high-end PvE, so I'm very much in favour of this. usually, the competitive players tend to gravitate towards PvP, and something like the system you suggested could help balance it out.

      however, I see a couple of things that may prove problematic;
      • while the idea of standardizing gear might sound appealing at first, it will undoubtedly lead in some difficulty rewarding the players properly. also, I'm fairly sure this would essentially invalidate all other content that reward completion purely with item drops.
      • if your 'score' would be determined solely by clearspeed, I don't doubt for a moment that it would deter players to find glitches and exploits to essentially speedrun the content. I feel some other method of scoring would ve necessary. time could certainly be a part of it, though.

    • New

      For the equalized gear part, the idea was to have the choice. Let's say, there is like a spec that need full crit, we can choose the stat, full speed either etc... But it will be difficult if there is a "cap crit" to reach for a spec.

      Maybe a few spec will not be playable at 100% with this system, but if everyone else have the same "problem" it's not so bad.

      For the "teasure pouch" idea, i don't know, the point was to not have so much reward other than the "top 3 score". To avoid the farming other than the top timer. But why not.

      For the "endgame" part, your talk about raid, right ? Like i said, it's a "classic PVE endgame content", so, raid = 10-20-40 players, so, evening, and 2-3-4 hours maybe just chain hard try. The point of the Challenger mode is to have a "quick party with friends" with competition.

      The "simple" side of the idea is for the developers. Their priority is the PVP. That's why the big point are "Not so long", "Just for the timer", "Farm the mode for the gold or anything else are not so good" and "Easy for the developers".

      But like you said, polished it it's not bad... well... if the developers see it...

    • New

      I think a season should last two weeks, because 1 month of the same challenge over and over again might get repetitive, and not useful for players already among the leaderboards. Also, two weeks is still enough time for casuals to stay competitive.

      A potential simpler option for gear:

      - Each player chooses the (Legendary?) gear s/he wants with the ruins s/he wants.
      - A gear set can be saved. The number of "gear save slots" you have corresponds to the number of skill decks you have

      This will make sure everyone gets the build s/he wants and would also be simple to implement. This will also show which equipement/class is overpowered or underpowered, so balance changes can be made from stats resulting of this gamemode.

      After each season, the best teams could recieve (low amounts of) lumena and/or cosmetics (as proposed by the original poster).

    • New

      The original idea with 1 month is for ALL dungeons, you can choose whatever dungeons you want, the good point is the choice.

      But your idea for the gear is a good one, i thought about it but i wasn't sure that developers wants to put the last gear.

      But if we have the best gear, the challenger mode will be faster than the normal one, so we need to reduce the gold and craft component.

    • New

      I am not against it or for it. I enjoy pve to a certain extent but I prefer competitive pvp. PvE doesn't really do anything me on the competitive side and honestly sounds weird to me....just my opinion though.

    • New

      Moroi wrote:

      this seems somewhat similar to the mythic+ system in WoW. I really adore high-end PvE, so I'm very much in favour of this. usually, the competitive players tend to gravitate towards PvP, and something like the system you suggested could help balance it out.

      however, I see a couple of things that may prove problematic;
      • while the idea of standardizing gear might sound appealing at first, it will undoubtedly lead in some difficulty rewarding the players properly. also, I'm fairly sure this would essentially invalidate all other content that reward completion purely with item drops.
      • if your 'score' would be determined solely by clearspeed, I don't doubt for a moment that it would deter players to find glitches and exploits to essentially speedrun the content. I feel some other method of scoring would ve necessary. time could certainly be a part of it, though.

      Scaling gear isn't really all that hard. Plenty of games have done it in the past so borrowing from them really wouldn't hurt Neowiz or Bless.

      Flug wrote:

      For the equalized gear part, the idea was to have the choice. Let's say, there is like a spec that need full crit, we can choose the stat, full speed either etc... But it will be difficult if there is a "cap crit" to reach for a spec.

      Maybe a few spec will not be playable at 100% with this system, but if everyone else have the same "problem" it's not so bad.

      For the "teasure pouch" idea, i don't know, the point was to not have so much reward other than the "top 3 score". To avoid the farming other than the top timer. But why not.

      For the "endgame" part, your talk about raid, right ? Like i said, it's a "classic PVE endgame content", so, raid = 10-20-40 players, so, evening, and 2-3-4 hours maybe just chain hard try. The point of the Challenger mode is to have a "quick party with friends" with competition.

      The "simple" side of the idea is for the developers. Their priority is the PVP. That's why the big point are "Not so long", "Just for the timer", "Farm the mode for the gold or anything else are not so good" and "Easy for the developers".

      But like you said, polished it it's not bad... well... if the developers see it...
      For your stat suggestion are you suggesting this for level sync? If this system is for end game, it could work similar to sockets in WoW or materia in FFXIV. The precedent is there so Neowiz would just need to pick which route to go. As for this system in level capped content? I wouldn't count on it as it's much simpler to scale everything down on a similar level.

      QcDiablo wrote:

      I think a season should last two weeks, because 1 month of the same challenge over and over again might get repetitive, and not useful for players already among the leaderboards. Also, two weeks is still enough time for casuals to stay competitive.

      A potential simpler option for gear:

      - Each player chooses the (Legendary?) gear s/he wants with the ruins s/he wants.
      - A gear set can be saved. The number of "gear save slots" you have corresponds to the number of skill decks you have

      This will make sure everyone gets the build s/he wants and would also be simple to implement. This will also show which equipement/class is overpowered or underpowered, so balance changes can be made from stats resulting of this gamemode.

      After each season, the best teams could recieve (low amounts of) lumena and/or cosmetics (as proposed by the original poster).
      "Choosing" gear is a nice idea in practice but in reality removes the element of randomness. There aren't many who are going to go into a dungeon once they have collected whatever set it is they want. Drops should never be predictable or else you end up with a reward system like WoW or FFXIV, which gets real old, real fast.

    • New

      Pentrep wrote:

      Scaling gear isn't really all that hard. Plenty of games have done it in the past so borrowing from them really wouldn't hurt Neowiz or Bless.

      "Choosing" gear is a nice idea in practice but in reality removes the element of randomness. There aren't many who are going to go into a dungeon once they have collected whatever set it is they want. Drops should never be predictable or else you end up with a reward system like WoW or FFXIV, which gets real old, real fast.
      no, it's not hard at all. I'm just saying that it is flawed as a concept; even if people want to have content in which their success depends solely on their skill & coordination, and not factors such as gear, they still need to be rewarded somehow, or they will inevitably gravitate away from the content. conversely, if gear does not bar your entry to this type of content and you're free to enter as soon as you hit level cap, what's the point of clearing any other type of content?

      I have to disagree here. while rng is nice the odd time you happen to get lucky, but since probabilities are just that, you might as well get horribly unlucky with drops for hundreds of times in a row. nobody likes to get slapped in the face by rng, especially repeatedly. honestly, I think the loot system in WoW right now is really good; such as items providing primary stats depending on your loot spec (i.e. feral druid would get agility from their leather gear, restoration would get intelligence from the same items).

    • New

      conversely, if gear does not bar your entry to this type of content and you're free to enter as soon as you hit level cap, what's the point of clearing any other type of content?"


      That's the point, if the challenger mode are more easy to farm, for gold or anything else, we need to remove all this.
      The original idea was to reduce the reward (others than the top3 rewards) to avoid the farming of this mode.

      The challenger mode is JUST for reach the top 3 timer and get the rewards; not for farm gold or anything else. (Or to try strat, gear optimisation, new gameplay etc...)

    • New

      Flug wrote:

      The challenger mode is JUST for reach the top 3 timer and get the rewards; not for farm gold or anything else. (Or to try strat, gear optimisation, new gameplay etc...)
      this does seem more sensible than having the main reward being just more gear. I recall there being something similar in Tera, where achieving a certain rank on the few dungeon leaderboards there were would reward you with a gem at the end of the season. the gem had no use at all, except for being worth a set amount of gold when sold to any merchant; this would be mailed to your entire group, and the higher rank you got, the higher value gem you got with it. I could see something similar working in Bless

    • New

      Pentrep wrote:

      "Choosing" gear is a nice idea in practice but in reality removes the element of randomness. There aren't many who are going to go into a dungeon once they have collected whatever set it is they want. Drops should never be predictable or else you end up with a reward system like WoW or FFXIV, which gets real old, real fast.
      Sorry, I pronounced myself in a wrong way.

      i meant: choosing the Gear you'll have while you play the Challenge gamemode, not that you acquire the gear you chose once you complete a challenge.
      I wrote this to make sure people get to have the build they want during the challenge, so they can be competitive and learn more strategies by having the freedom of choosing the right gear for them.

      I wrote this as a reaction to

      Fulmi wrote:

      - You'll not have your gear, you'll have the same gear than the others.
      Which I found to be kinda lackluster for a 'competitive' mode, especially for a MMO which builds itself around having the right build for the right situation.

      I hope it makes more sense now.

      ____________________________________________________

      Off topic: For general dungeon loot, I also think an element of randomness is better, because always having the perfect gear for you would make Bless to be very easy to finish, and this is bad for an MMO.
      However, I think you should have more chance to loot gear for you class (not something huge, just to make farming for gear less of a painful experience to get all the right gear; ex: 20% for your class, 13.3% for the 6 others, which includes mystic and assassin).

      The post was edited 2 times, last by QcDiablo ().

    • New

      Moroi wrote:

      Pentrep wrote:

      Scaling gear isn't really all that hard. Plenty of games have done it in the past so borrowing from them really wouldn't hurt Neowiz or Bless.

      "Choosing" gear is a nice idea in practice but in reality removes the element of randomness. There aren't many who are going to go into a dungeon once they have collected whatever set it is they want. Drops should never be predictable or else you end up with a reward system like WoW or FFXIV, which gets real old, real fast.
      no, it's not hard at all. I'm just saying that it is flawed as a concept; even if people want to have content in which their success depends solely on their skill & coordination, and not factors such as gear, they still need to be rewarded somehow, or they will inevitably gravitate away from the content. conversely, if gear does not bar your entry to this type of content and you're free to enter as soon as you hit level cap, what's the point of clearing any other type of content?
      I have to disagree here. while rng is nice the odd time you happen to get lucky, but since probabilities are just that, you might as well get horribly unlucky with drops for hundreds of times in a row. nobody likes to get slapped in the face by rng, especially repeatedly. honestly, I think the loot system in WoW right now is really good; such as items providing primary stats depending on your loot spec (i.e. feral druid would get agility from their leather gear, restoration would get intelligence from the same items).
      I welcome the discussion. Does WoW still use the tomestone system? The problem with this is what happens when you complete your tomestone set? In FFXIV many people are happy to just complete this set and move on to another class, often seeing it as a disconnect between content releases. The tomestone system appeals more to instant gratification but it needs to be supplemented with something. The raid community can be offsetting at times and not everyone wants to participate in it. But I suppose that's the trade off for some.
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